Hey Boy-os!

Hey! how is everyone doing..Have been busy with essays and assignments thus far, not forgetting searching for houses to move into in september.. I have been fine so far, and have been attending a hillsong church in Newcastle, which was set up by the hillsong church in london..the folks in church are great.. and have made "real" friends there.. had pancake day just on tuesday with 2 pals i made in church..its nice being in a church family.. whenever we have meetings and fun, i cant stop but think of u guys and the fun we all had as church pals back home.. yeah, do update me on how u guys are doing ya, really want to know all the happenings.. and yeah, i'm still looking for ppl to backpack with me in europe in mid june before i fly back to singapore.. anyone wants to join me..will be more than happy to, cause looks like i'm going alone..ok..keep me posted yeah..

cheers and god bless!

Topic to Discuss: Gerard & Steve's Conversation about a Blog article attacking City Harvest Church

Hey Guys, am wanting to know what you think about a particular issue I faced recently, and whether I was too adamant about clarification and standing up for the Christian faith vis-a-vis the queried doubts a brother raised. Basically, one of our brothers who although not active in our YA Ministry, but remains someone we all care about and hope to continue to reach out to, Bro Gerard Tay, had a conversation with me on Windows Live Messngr last week.

It was about his issue with Churches being political vehicles and he stated that it was his view that Churches are using persuasion tactics to get members to be submitted to its control. He is open to the idea that the Church is altruistic in the big picture, but still feels strongly and perhaps cynically somewhat, about the Church body as a whole in Singapore, and in general. The following is a conversation I had with him after he raised the topic during a chat. He began by discussing how there was a controversial yet popular article he read on the Internet, that referred to City Harvest Church and where the author of that article, an ex-RJC girl, derogatorily labelled it a "Cash Harvest Cult" upon her visit there.

The Excerpt of our Chat on MSN is as such:
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Gerard Tay says:http://gssq.blogspot.com/2007/01/vist-to-cash-harvest-cult-i-went-to.html
Gerard Tay says:very controversial piece
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:is this your blog man
Gerard Tay says:no man
Gerard Tay says:it was on tomorrow.sg
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:oh...wow., how do you read so many blogs...
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:i think in this age of so many blogs, i get BLOGGED out really quickly
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:i was always impressed wth how you sourced stuff man
Gerard Tay says:tomorrow.sg is just a collection of nominated posts
Gerard Tay says:i don't follow blogs
Gerard Tay says:but sometimes there are interesting stuff on the page
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:oh ok...that's a good thing
Gerard Tay says:how's the article tho
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:cos it's over Bloggified out there
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:gonna read it now
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:interesting so far
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:you there?
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:what are your thoughts man
Gerard Tay says:yup
Gerard Tay says:hmm
Gerard Tay says:no comments
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:i mean, man, it is a topic that has been debated for the last 3 or 4 years now
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:amongst the churches
Gerard Tay says:frankly...
Gerard Tay says:i don't see too much difference between the megachurches and the smaller churches
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:yep, there shouldnt be actually
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:Like, alot of differences may be in approach
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:but the content, having attended big ones and small ones, pretty much is the same
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:Churches like City Harvest and New Creation may preach alot more focus on the blessings God has for us
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:but in another sense many have unfairly labelled them as strictly prosperity preaching churches. Alot of the critics only attended their services say the 1 or 2 fleeting times and, made up their mind.
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:I know, because I used to judge them like that too
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:And, I today am a member of the small church. But I am careful not to judge the big ones, just because we are all one family and really, no Church is perfect
Gerard Tay says:i find churches to be political vehicles
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:Christians are all human, we should look to God
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:for standards
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:Political vehicles, yeah, that's true
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:but then you'd have to say, what would they gain, for motive. If you talk about influence, the Church should be naturally influential if they evinced a Christ-like ness in their ways of living
Gerard Tay says:people are political creatures
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:and people are political, with quests for dominance, power, authority and so on. But no one would know if the Churches were deriving influence because they craved power and authority over the masses, or if the masses actually first came to the Churches and wanted the Church's influence because the Church showed true influence by ways like love, and kindness in touching the community
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:at the end i'd say yes the Church is inevitably a political vehicle. but it was meant to be, and FOR GOOD
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:not for dominance or evil
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:what do you think
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:In the second part of this article, the writer is clearly sarcastic and condescending towards the multi-variate depth of God's word, because the writer has already had a preconceived notion of what she perceived as her take on God's word, saying: "How women were not allowed to wear Jeans (Deuteronomy 22:5)? Or maybe introduce us to hardcore pornography (Song of Solomon)."
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:Now, I have no reason to defend City Harvest other than that they are a fellow Church in Singapore and that I, like many Christians, by faith, feel that the Church is one body
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:The Church may well have 'over preached' the finances aspect, or been tactical about their ways of recruitment by inviting many into the "borg" as the writer suggests.
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:But for the writer, to become caustic and attack the Church by her own interpretation of things is purely a retaliation done in angst.
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:She writes that selling a band's cds at $22 is something that was likened to being worse than people trading in the temple in Jesus' day. But that is not for me to judge
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:If the writer were to delve into God's word in depth, she might find that God's word is not just two dimensional worded text meant to be interepreted literally, but also by Spiritual discernment. That's why she denigrates Song od Solomon to the point of defining it as 'hardcore porn', when it actually is all about the nature of the beauty of sex and love and bonding in God's sense
Gerard Tay says:put it first...
Gerard Tay says:persuasion techniques when applied...
Gerard Tay says:question honesty
Gerard Tay says:yet everyone uses it
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:True...but do you think the Church is persuading people against their will...yet again i will let you know, as i said, i'm not saying City Harvest is right in their method or approach
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:but you've got to see it in context. They are possibly also just facilitating the act of tithing. Thus they have E-tithing fr Mastercard
Gerard Tay says:you watched hell's bells?
Gerard Tay says:that was persuasion
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:and such because it is the modern approach
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:Tithing is giving to God and is Biblical. If the writer of that article is going against tithing, it is none other than the fact that she does not even first of all believe in Christianity
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:so it is not her fault that she holds those views.
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:But as Christians, we have the right to let her know that to make such blanket judgements are unfair
Gerard Tay says:hmm
Gerard Tay says:methods employed then?
Gerard Tay says:churches line their bags with money before they start asking for tithes...
Gerard Tay says:which employs the device of social proof...
Gerard Tay says:when they're asking for followers, some are seeded in the congregation to move first
Gerard Tay says:which is the same persuasive device
Gerard Tay says:that's something they should really reveal to the public
Gerard Tay says:is that for good or for evil?
Gerard Tay says:who's making gains? is it an honest impartial move?
Gerard Tay says:pop culture, marketing christianity
Gerard Tay says:we know how marketing works
Gerard Tay says:good? bad?
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:Well, Churches lining their bags with money before asking for tithes is a statement which is inadmissible and inconclusive because there is no way of proving that or attributing a particular church with it,
Gerard Tay says:you decide
Gerard Tay says:not all churches...
Gerard Tay says:sigh...
Gerard Tay says:look at their lines of argument
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:Similarly, with the asking of followers, as I said, maybe a certain Church has a method of inviting people
Gerard Tay says:how many fallacies do they commit everytime they make a point?
Gerard Tay says:so if a certain church was to be marketed like macdonalds
Gerard Tay says:with coupons and tearouts...
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:As for your points about Public Accountability/Gains/Marketing
Gerard Tay says:and owning supermarkets and fast food outlets...
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:Perhaps they could be accountable, but there again, that one Church may be employing commercial methods
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:but it is not right to say it is blanketed across all Churches
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:As for fallacies everytime they make a point, I'd have to say that is too general. But really, I;ve seen that City Harvest, the Church in question now, really does not say anything too off the Bible
Gerard Tay says:but it's an eventual tipping point...
Gerard Tay says:yup
Gerard Tay says:but of course, when we start talking about business practices...
Gerard Tay says:we know that numbers sanctify
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:Alot of the criticisms come from people unhappy as you say, with their business practices
Gerard Tay says:we know that any mass assembly is largely unable to make independent judgements
Gerard Tay says:more than that...
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:now that i agree
Gerard Tay says:if you study social psychology...
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:that's where you have to look at their organisation structure
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:and see where their money goes
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:like in alot of churches, we have AGMs and we have transparency
Gerard Tay says:i'm not purely talking about money
Gerard Tay says:the money issue is the least of it
Gerard Tay says:of course, money and social power being the fundamental drive of any group or organization
Gerard Tay says:is it for good or for evil?
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:You're talking about the persuausion and sense of marketing to derive this social power?Gerard Tay says:i believe that good is being unselfish
Gerard Tay says:that the motivation is not primed towards personal gains
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:yep, that is a characterisitc of being good
Gerard Tay says:i'm talking about under the belt persuasion devices...
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:Now, what you're saying may be true
Gerard Tay says:playing on populist arguments to drive a point
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:That there are ways of persuading and driving a point
Gerard Tay says:and bringing everything back to god after that...
Gerard Tay says:isn't the most convincing thing i've seen
Gerard Tay says:how many christians spout slogans when you ask them why they're christians?
Gerard Tay says:like i'm saying, practices
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:That's where you have to be clear bro, that we do not judge the Christians and the Churches
Gerard Tay says:i don't criticize god. i don't physically see him... but i see people
Gerard Tay says:i see under the belt persuasive devices used
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:they are imperfect.
Gerard Tay says:when the pope is corrupt
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:you may be right about their methods of doing things being at times, under the belt
Gerard Tay says:where do we go?
Gerard Tay says:do we criticize?
Gerard Tay says:what if he has mass opinion on his side?
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:but at the end of the day, wehre we go is to walk with God
Gerard Tay says:do we just rub it off and say
Gerard Tay says:the pope was imperfect?
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:Nope, we need to pray for the Pope
Gerard Tay says:haha
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:just as we do for all leaders of Churches, big or small
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:now...seriously, it sounds weak to do so
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:but, in reality, since God has the masterplan and is in control and can bring it all right again, we should seek him
Gerard Tay says:it's not a matter of sounding weak or strong
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:we shouldnt judge the ones around us. But it is not to say that we can't distinguish right from wrong
Gerard Tay says:do we then call out?
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:In the case you're talking abt
Gerard Tay says:what if it is not a right place to call on such behaviour?
Gerard Tay says:purely because they're in the driving seat?
Gerard Tay says:power sanctifies
Gerard Tay says:in a human world
Gerard Tay says:you realize that the power you wield when seated in a congregation is nothing... when you hear something that doesn't make sense...
Gerard Tay says:an invalid line...
Gerard Tay says:you either block out one...
Gerard Tay says:but you can't speak against it
Gerard Tay says:then comes a slippery slope argument
Gerard Tay says:and the full congregation seems in agreement with it
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:this issue is not say about calling out even though you feel it is unjust, but it comes down to what exactly are you feeling is wrong here
Gerard Tay says:now, you're in the congregation and similarly prone to group think
Gerard Tay says:populist arguments...
Gerard Tay says:it is true that the person who appeals better wins
Gerard Tay says:coz in religion, it doesn't matter if it works
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:You see, if you go to City Harvest and it feels like you're made to group think because of populist arguments that are underhandedly dealt to you to make you subject to it,
Gerard Tay says:people will still believe it
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:then you'd have to check between you and God in prayer...or conversation (prayer is conversation()
Gerard Tay says:religion is different from a government
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:and maybe you don't fit in well there because you don't feel comfortable by your own idea of how things are done
Gerard Tay says:religion doesn't have to account for a lack of roads or unemployment rate
Gerard Tay says:it only has to satisfy the coffers
Gerard Tay says:anyway... it's going to be a long argument
Gerard Tay says:no... it's not my own idea
Gerard Tay says:group think was not my theory
Gerard Tay says:neither are fallacies
Gerard Tay says:but not many study invalid arguments and how they worked
Gerard Tay says:hell... NKF... the scandal was more in deceiving the public over their funds
Gerard Tay says:not so much about the pay
Gerard Tay says:but it was scandalous only because the mainstream population was jealous
Gerard Tay says:and of course, we know that the story was only published because of a political fallout somewhere
Gerard Tay says:which is more scandalous? the right arm of our government, the media and the press
Gerard Tay says:how could a story that rocked the cradle been released?
Gerard Tay says:now when we look at churches, and examine things in the same light...
Gerard Tay says:every argument... was there a reason, are there possible causes beyond god
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:I basically dont think you're giving them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their right to their operation modus. You seem to have made up your mind that they are already deceiving the public with group think theory and that they can get away with it because they have populist persuasion and a hold on people who are then in a Church where everything is covered up as religion.
Gerard Tay says:i give a player more benefit of the doubt than i do a person of higher power
Gerard Tay says:frankly, when more is at stake, the cards are less clean
Gerard Tay says:we cannot afford to give benefits of the doubt and assume that another has knowledge when they are striving for something
Gerard Tay says:especially when it isn't just
Gerard Tay says:especially when it's a selfish behaviour
Gerard Tay says:frankly, i don't want to comment too much...
Gerard Tay says:but put everything under a microscope and assume objectivity
Gerard Tay says:then u realize that civilization is much dirtier than you think
Gerard Tay says:we cannot say that man is incapable of such manipulation techniques of such proportions, because it has been done
Gerard Tay says:how far do persuasion techniques go?
Gerard Tay says:i have no idea
Gerard Tay says:the fact that there is a gathered assembly there exist an influence over people that we just cannot imagine the scale of control that it yields
Gerard Tay says:a group is always prone to group think
Gerard Tay says:no one point cannot be argued
Gerard Tay says:as long as it is fairly convincing...
Gerard Tay says:we shall not look at the structure of the argument
Gerard Tay says:big churches... small
Gerard Tay says:i can't say the smaller ones are better than the bigger ones
Gerard Tay says:anyway, i gotta get some work done
Gerard Tay says:ta
Gerard Tay says:and in closing
Gerard Tay says:when we talk about whether god exists or doesn't exist...
Gerard Tay says:we reach a point and we just realize that we grow tired of arguing
Gerard Tay says:and we realize that we need something to believe in...
Gerard Tay says:it doesn't answer our question for the truth...
Gerard Tay says:not yet anyway
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:Hey boss sorry man went to help Uncle Peter get some boxes
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:will read what you wrote
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:we cannot say that man is incapable of such manipulation techniques of such proportions, because it has been done - I totally agree with this
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:All i was saying was that yeah, we're not arguing mate...I just wanna let you know that I don't think we can say that such and such is unjust unless proven that they indeed use such modus operandi in a way that you speak of
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:I can't think of how City Harvest may be doing this, but cant rule it out either. Now you say that its the same with smaller churches, that may be, but yet again, I can't see what kind of persuasion techniques that could be under the belt that needs to be used
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:After all, God said that in his Word, we give back to God our Tithe. Now, you said it wasn't about money, so then if you're not talking about anything specific other than saying they wield influence and that people group think in a herd mentality based on populist movements, I'd say, let's have some specifics.
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:It is all too abstract and ambiguous and in a court sounds like hearsay and claims without backing. We need to also consider that the Church has so many followers in whatever aspect because it is doing indeed what it was meant to do, and that is: to be influential and touch the community with God's message of Love.
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:This opposed to, say a bunch of people who are yielded under the Church's scale of control. At the end of the day, people have choices.
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:They can choose not to be a part of City Harvest, they can choose not to be in any Church for that matter. If like the author of that article, they attend for reasons such as to disprove the whole thing and label it as cult of cash harvest or whatever, that's their own prerogative.
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:If they attend like the author, and twist God's Word to formulate their own arguments (the very irony being that she said that was the very thing many preachers did), such as how the Church's method of operation like calling for tithes with Mastercard are badthen, as I said, they have their sarcastic viewpoints and are entitled to it. stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:But we as Christians, have the right to say that that is not fair.
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:Christians and Churches aren't perfect. We are like the Non-Christians only in that we have made the decision to follow Jesus and thus, the rest of our lives are slowly transformed each day by his grace and Word. We still slip up, still make mistakes, and still, hurt people. Whether at City Harvest or at Salem Chapel, you can be assured that we're only human. But, redeemed by God's grace, we try
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:our best to serve God's purposes for us, and bring hope, love, salvation, peace and blessings to Singapore. Yes,our methods differ, and some, may as you say, ostensibly be seen as persuasive. But to suggest we are manipulative and using devices, one would need to first prove it, and second, check for motive. I can find none.
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:If one says motive is so that the Church can become powerful, I'd say, inasmuch as that is a strong motivation, I don't see where unless they were doing anything wrong, it constitutes something negative. At the end of the day, the Church is meant and called to be powerful, an influence on the world around us. If we infiltrate politics and so on, it is a blessed thing. stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:I think what you're suggesting is that the Church uses its influence now that it has wielded it, for evil and gains. Again, as I said, all this is ambiguous foot shooting unless it can be proven. If people talk about the finances or the areas of influence, there are auditors, people out there who can legally prove whether money has been misappropriated.
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:If you're saying evil and gains cannot be quantified by finances but by the way they manipulate people with social devlices and marketing, then I'd say, yet again, what are you saying? That people are led by the Pied Piper, without choice? And that's if I even take it from a negative viewpoint. I for one, don't think the Church
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:which bears so many fruit like "offering self improvement classes", health care for the elderly, English classes, Bible Study, have Christian rock concerts and social networking amongst family, would constitute a negative kind of output for society. Man, there are tons of organisations like NKF where indeed as you say, the scandals for personal gain are aplenty. And those were proven. You'd have
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:to prove the Church had people manipulating finances the same way NKF was if you were to indeed make a cogent case about it being held as you did, 'in the same light'. In fact, it is absolutely errant to categorise the Church in the same light as NKF as it is not only derogratory to the Church who has not been found guilty on any such charge, to be listed on the same level as NKF, who have.
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:In essence, we cannot judge vis-a-vis the issue we are talking about here. We can if it were say, like you said, the pope made a mistake or something massive happened. But those things never did. Everything has emanated from a hypothesis based on yours or say the author of that article's own formed view that indeed the church was doing as you say, which again, as I said, you are entitled to your
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:opinion, but it is in no way classfied as concrete hard fact or evidence.
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:To suggest the Pope and all do something wrong and asking me if we should stay silent or find an avenue, I think that is a disparate issue, because for one simple reason, we are simply not talking about something the Church DID do wrong here. It is merely a person's hypotheses that the Church is doing what in this person's view is wrong. And for that, as I said, we cannot judge the unseen.
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:True, there are vibes emitted that make us feel uncomfortable, but we cannot legislate our feelings as facts.
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:And like I said, I agree with you on certain counts, I may not be comfortable with City Harvest's way of doing things, but I cannot judge them, unless they did do something that was not biblical and advocated that, and they have not as far as I know.
stephencharlesthanabalan@gmail.com says:Sorry man....there are some things I just cannot say we won't argue about...I don't see it as arguing, I see it as letting you know that when you read such posts like the link you sent me, often, the folly of intellect is such that the person adapts whatever interpretation of the truth that they already have formulated and take things out of context to form their argument which they then use.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I'd like to know what you guys think. The rest of the conversation was alot more positive because Gerard responded not to my defense statements but later I told him our YA Ministry and cell and leaders like Bro Raja prays for him regularly and we care for him as a family and I meant no pride in refuting him, and he laughed and said he was cool with my comments, and he'd consider coming to cell and thanks us for our care and prayers and love, but that he is busy. But that still does not change that such a conversation and topic is one that is prevalent out there today and I was wanting to know our fellow brothers thoughts on the matter and the scathing article that triggered the conversation. May God give us wisdom to handle such issues.